35 whelen long throat

aseedylot
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35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Mon May 04, 2015 12:46 pm

I really want to shoot cast bullets out of my 35 whelen but i am questioning if cast bullets would shoot well out of my rifle. Just measured throat by chambering a round with a 250 grain jacketed bullet backwards. It seems that my whelen has a .375inch long throat. Never seen such a long throat, so i did multiple measurements and came up with same result. Checked google and this sounds common for the whelen. Do you have any design suggestions that may work in this rifle? The barrel has a 1in14inch twist so I was thinking of a 280 grain bullet. The only thought i have is crimping off of a lube groove to get a longer bullet nose without running into unsupported ogive. Any help would be great. I have a mold that you made for my 444 marlin and it has been wonderful game getting bullet and a pleasure for downrange rock thumping.
Thanks for your time and help. Scott

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mtngun
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby mtngun » Mon May 04, 2015 3:40 pm

Your throat length measurement is a good start, but you may want to make a throat impression, too.

There are two popular designs for long rifle bullets, the Loverin and the Bore Rider.

The Loverin is the easiest, just seat it out until it makes contact with something (or more likely, 0.015" away from contact). Normally there is no reason to crimp bolt action cartridges unless the bullets in the magazine are moving under recoil.

The Bore Rider is much more complicated. You'll need to determine your bore diameter (not groove diameter). Then decide whether you want to engrave the nose or if you want a slip fit in the bore. If you want to engrave then the nose should be 0.0005" - 0.0010" larger than bore diameter. If you want a slip fit then the nose should be 0.0005" - 0.0" smaller than bore diameter. As-cast diameters are always subject to tolerances so bore rider molds tend to be a crap shoot.

There are a couple of 290 grain bore riding molds in stock. I dunno if the nose diameters are appropriate for your gun but at least you would know what you are getting. :lol:
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aseedylot
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Tue May 05, 2015 5:39 pm

I am interested in the #2 290 grain mold that is in stock. What measurements would make or not make this mold work for my rifle? How big is the meplat, and why over 2000 views and nobody has bought it? I am a hunter and not a target shooter. I hunt in a basin in NW Montana that has the largest grizzly density in the lower 48. I am building this rifle as a hunting rifle but I will also be carrying it as a backup gun while hunting with my partner who will be bow hunting for elk and large black bear. I was charged by a wounded bear two seasons ago. I was carrying a 44 with 260 hard cast with a .340 meplat and as the bear lunge i fired and the bear died. Simple but this performance is what I am looking for in a whelen bullet. Is this bullet a good candidate for my needs or should i try to design a bullet with a much larger meplat? Once again thank you for your thoughts on bullets and design. Scott

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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby mtngun » Tue May 05, 2015 8:01 pm

aseedylot wrote: What measurements would make or not make this mold work for my rifle? How big is the meplat, and why over 2000 views and nobody has bought it? .... Is this bullet a good candidate for my needs or should i try to design a bullet with a much larger meplat?


The critical measurement will be the bore riding nose -- whether it is a good fit in your barrel. My measurements are in wheelweight so you may be able to tweak the nose diameter by using a different alloy.

The meplat is small but the ogive is very short similar to a round nose. That should help feeding.

I don't know why no one has bought it since I am not a mind reader. :lol: But most people who visit this site prefer to design their own bullets.

I like large meplats. You'll have to decide if a large meplat will feed in your gun.

Your bear story is interesting. Black or griz? I've only encountered one aggressive black bear, while I was camping. My campsite was located near where someone been baiting bears for several years previously, so that may have had something to do with it. The bear circled around my camp all night popping its jaw as bears do when they are angry. Needless to say I didn't get much sleep. When daylight came I went hiking and returned later to find that the bear had climbed on top of my truck -- it still has a ding in the roof of the cab and a scratch from the claw -- and tore up my sleeping bag and shredded my foam mattress. There was no food involved so apparently the bear was just angry. I'm guessing it had a bad experience with the bear baiter?

aseedylot
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Wed May 06, 2015 8:02 am

The bear was a big black bear that my hunting partner shot with a lite weight mechanical broadhead arrow, he now shoots heavy single bevel broad heads upon my request. The shot was a steep angle as we were standing on top of a small cliff. The shot was 35 yards. Bear ran off and left a good blood trail. We were going to wait an hour before we started tracking but a thunderstorm moved in and we were afraid of loosing the blood trail through the seven plus foot tall shrubage. We followed the blood trail for half a mile and encountered the bear running away from us. At that point I took my partners backpack and sent him on top of a ridge to get another shot at the bear while I continued to track. I came over a steep hill and over a large fallen tree to see the bear lying on the ground 10 feet away. My first thought was that I needed to back up and let the bear die. The next thought was how cute the teddy bear looked, before this thought finished running through my head the bear lunged surprising fast towards me. I was shown the hunting spot because the year before my partner ran into a large grizzly by full moon on an early morning hunt. He wanted somebody who could protect him and his bear phobia. I had my pistol in hand and was ready to fire. As the bear lunged I instinctively fired a quick shot and fell over backwards as the bear fell in the opposite direction. The bullet hit high in the skull and exited rear ribs pulling a chunk of intestine out of the exit hole. The 260 wfn bullet was only traveling around 950 fps. I gained a large confidence in the terminal ballistics of hard cast bullets that day. The arrow had only scratched the outside of the heart and cut a marble size piece off the edge of one lung. We now call the hunting spot Bear Valley. Last year the state had to set aside 37,000 acres from logging for core grizzly habitat. Bear Valley is smack dab in the middle of this habitat.

I will mull over bullets a bit more and get back to you about the stock mold or i will design my own.

Thanks again. Your forum has been very helpful and good reading.

aseedylot
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Wed May 06, 2015 12:09 pm

Few more questions and then hopefully i will leave you alone. In my mind a Loverin design would be a straight body with smaller grooves that then ends in a small length nose. The diameter should be grove diameter plus .001 or .002inches. Is this a correct thought? Max meplat with a bolt gun is determined by the meplat size a gun will feed reliably. Would cutting down jacketed bullets until desired meplat is reached and then trying to feed this round be a decent way to experiment with feeding meplat size? Lastly, in regards to hunting, have you played with annealing the nose of the bullet while leaving the body of the bullet in water to soften the nose and facilitate expansion? I ask this last question because of the stock molds. I have only used large meplat bullets for hunting and I wonder about the effectiveness of expanding annealed roundnose bullets on game.
Thanks
Scott

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mtngun
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby mtngun » Wed May 06, 2015 1:39 pm

aseedylot wrote: The diameter should be grove diameter plus .001 or .002inches.

My rule of thumb for rifles is to start out with a bullet diameter of 0.002" over groove. From there, you may want to experiment with different diameters to fine-tune the load.

Would cutting down jacketed bullets until desired meplat is reached and then trying to feed this round be a decent way to experiment with feeding meplat size?

Maybe, but cast bullets may more prone to catch on sharp corners than a similarly shaped jacketed bullet.

Lastly, in regards to hunting, have you played with annealing the nose of the bullet while leaving the body of the bullet in water to soften the nose and facilitate expansion?

I personally have not played with that. Generally a blunt hard cast bullet at rifle velocity (say 1600 - 2000 fps) will "rivet" up on impact become a full wadcutter. I suspect the 358009 type bullets are blunt enough to rivet upon impact, though I haven't actually used that design myself.

aseedylot
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Thu May 07, 2015 10:30 am

One more questions. Decided on a Loverin design over the lyman 358009. How long of nose should a Loverin have. I am going to do a 280 grain bullet at .360 diameter with a .1 front band. I was thinking of a .3 nose length. Does this sound about right?
Thanks once again for your time and patience.
Scott

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mtngun
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby mtngun » Thu May 07, 2015 10:35 am

That sounds reasonable but there is no right or wrong answer. I use the term "Loverin" loosely to refer to any single-diameter bullet, though traditionally they had many small grooves and bands, and a short nose.

aseedylot
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Re: 35 whelen long throat

Postby aseedylot » Mon May 11, 2015 7:04 am

I have been playing around with the design program and I am almost ready to order a mold, but I am having trouble deciding between a 2 cavity aluminum or brass mold. The bullets is gong to weigh 270 grains which is max length for your standard molds according to the design program. I am using wheelweights for casting. My other and only mold that came from you is .432 310 grain aluminum mold. I have been casting with a coleman stove and have been getting decent bullets, three deer last year and many shattered rocks, but I do have a number of wrinkled bullets. I am assuming my casting temps are a little low. I was leaning towards brass for this mold since brass holds heat a little longer. Any thoughts would be great.


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